I was being ironic to highlight his downplaying.
You could always try actually playing him rather than just complaining about the people who play him, that way you might understand some of what I’m talking about.
Anyway, it’s clear that the main spot where he needs help is vs the fireballers. Those are the matchups that feel atrocious, because he just doesn’t really have any options there. He can never safely throw items or use supers at neutral, and all of them have solid reversals so air B is never an option. His only real gameplan is to predicatively jump a fireball, but since they know he has to go for that they can use the full range of tools at their disposal to mix up their fireball timing or shut down aerial approaches and just generally make his life a living hell. Even if he does get in, he’s not an especially competent close range fighter, so he doesn’t really have much advantage (compare Rook vs fireballers for example, he has both more tools to get in and can do way more when he gets in). In fact, I would say in a close-range battle, Grave > Lum, this might make this matchup his worst. Combine that with the fact that games in Fantasy Strike are best of 7, so he has to find a way in at least 4 times to win a match (in something like SF, you would only have to get in twice unless the fireballer successfully gets away, the extra rounds in Fantasy Strike basically amounts to giving the projectile user 2 free escapes) and you have something that feels both totally unwinnable and extremely unfun to play.
I feel like Lum would pretty much have to get some kind of buff that makes these fights more possible. The most obvious option would be to give B some projectile invulnerability (I just rewatched the Lum Spotlight video, and Sirlin does not mention that B has any projectile invulnerability, which leads me to believe that the current ability for B to occasionally go through projectiles from extremely precise ranges is actually unintended), which would force fireballers to be somewhat more careful about throwing fireballs at mid-range. These matchups would still likely be minus, as the problem about him not really having any advantage at close range still exists, but at least you’d have a couple tools to try to fight back with now.
It also might be worth looking at Air B at some point because I feel like it doesn’t serve the purpose it’s supposed to serve. The video implies that if you can manage to bounce off the spring, it should be very heavily advantageous, but the fact that it has such a long animation makes it trivially easy to reversal or counter, making it almost completely valueless. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you have very few moves available, having a single move that has no use is a huge blow to a character’s versatility. I’m not exactly sure what you’d do with it though. You could maybe allow him to cancel with Air C or something, which would make attempting to counter it risky, but this is of no use against the fireballers, who can simply mash reversal to beat both options. The only way it could ever be useful against fireballers would be if it was completely invincible from the moment the hitbox comes out, meaning it would beat any reversal option, but that seems kind of silly.
I like the air B cancel into air C idea.
Do you think removing the cake projectile would be a good buff? Just leave the cherry C as a non-damage projectile avoiding the spam but giving more zoning. Maybe too strong but B going through projectiles sounds even stronger
You should try watching me play lum.
I think lum’s air B is unfairly too good until the opponent has super
I haven’t even really found Jaina anywhere near as hard as stated in this thread really. Or Geiger, because Lum can actually win a turtling war with them. Not only is Grave’s zoning more threatening and limiting to Lum than the other zoning characters, but he’s just a slightly superior character in general; for instance his supers are better than Jaina and Geiger’s vs Lum, and his offense is better when he needs it. I think superior zoning (VS Lum) as well as superior offense to the other characters puts him in a class of his own.
I’m struggling a lot against good Setsuki, but also feel like I haven’t quite figured the Setsuki matchup out. But I still suspect Setsuki might be second hardest matchup.
Rook has been very easy to beat. My Grave is still better than my Lum, and I have a much much easier time beating Rook with Lum than with Grave.
Haven’t played against Midori at all, or a good Valerie.
EDIT: Played a bit more. Here is my current numbers as requested:
VS Grave: 3-7
VS Jaina: 4.5-5.5
VS Rook: 7-3
VS Valerie: 6-4
VS Geiger: 6-4
VS Setsuki: 4-6
VS DeGrey: 6-4
VS Midori: 4-6
I do play Lum and I do think he has a hard time against some characters.
That said you still downplay like a maniac. You are talking like you have it all figured out, when I’m pretty sure you don’t.
I haven’t read everything you wrote down, but if you really think his jB is worthless, you need to get more experience with him before talking.
@SirHandsome I’ve added your numbers, but they do seem kind of random, no offense.
Care to explain the reasoning behind them?
I’ll write down here my own thoughts about your numbers, so you can say were in your opinion I’m mistaken:
vs Grave: I can see it.
vs Jaina: I’d say 4-5, but it isn’t that much of a difference.
vs Rook: Lum can zone him, but once he gets in you have no reversal and you are forced to guess. Isn’t 7-3 a little too far?
vs Valerie: Lum has no reversal to get out of her mixups, how does he win this?
vs Geiger: I don’t know the MU, care to explain why you think Geiger wins it so I might get a better idea myself?
vs Setsuki: I see a 5-5 / 4.5-5.5 tops here, but I can see why you’d say that.
vs DeGrey: I can see it.
vs Midori: I see a 5-5 / 4.5-5.5 tops here, but I understand your reasons.
I think Geiger probably has advantage vs Lum, although playing Sirhandsome / Cwheezy Lum has made me believe a bit more in Lum than I did before so I’m not 100%
Lum has significant difficulties with gears imo since he has nothing that lets him remotely beat jA behind a gear
What do you use jB for?
To get in with block damage and plus frames. Add an item to it and you have 1 full bar of chip damage.
It’s very good for ambiguous crossups as well, so as long as not abused you can surprise an opponent that’s respecting the huge hitbox on your jA with it. If he doesn’t block correctly you get 3 damage, otherwise it’s 2 hits of block damage, and you can even try and sneak in a throw.
Also it breaks armor so as long as Rook doesn’t have Super, that move is legit free against him. Without Super DeGrey also can do very little about it.
Finally even though remote as a situation, it also helps against zoning: you can sometimes bait a jump and as the opponent tries to time an anti air projectile, you’ve already jumped and punished his recovery.
EDIT: Oh, and also it’s very good in the mirror.
[quote=“Haven, post:125, topic:626”]
I like the air B cancel into air C idea.[/quote]
I actually don’t like it, because it helps in the wrong matchups. It makes Rook WAY easier (it would undeniably be very heavily plus with this change, as ground super would never be relevant anymore, the moment you see the super flash just press C), and makes Midori and DeGrey somewhat easier, but doesn’t do anything vs the fireballers, since their reversals beat both options. The more ideal change would be something that beats reversals but doesn’t beat counters.
[quote=“Haven, post:125, topic:626”]
Do you think removing the cake projectile would be a good buff?[/quote]
It’s definitely a buff, as the cake is easily his worst item to throw, but I doubt they’d outright remove it.
[quote=“CWheezy, post:126, topic:626, full:true”]
You should try watching me play lum.
I think lum’s air B is unfairly too good until the opponent has super[/quote]
Sure, before they have super, it’s a decent move against some of the cast. Grave, Geiger, and non-Dragon Midori all have trivially easy ways to shut it down, so it’s never good against them, Jaina can clog up the sky to generally prevent its use, and Setsuki seems to be able to escape in most cases, so it’s not great against them either. But vs the others it’s a decent option until they have super.
The problem is, once they have super, they can simply hold it to prevent you from ever using this move (it’s trivially easy to react to, a good player will never fail to land it), and you get super extremely fast in this game, so the length of time when Air B is relevant is the very start of the match and immediately after they use their super. Lum also has no tools to bait out or otherwise remove supers, because his offense is so predictable and contains no branches / fakeouts. This is why I think it would be nice if he had an item that drained your super meter, it would make Air B more relevant.
Obviously, the above doesn’t apply to the Lum mirror, as he’s the one character who can never counter it. You can see what Air B is probably supposed to be in this matchup.
Also, sure, I would like to see your Lum gameplay, if you have some tricks that are allowing you to beat good players I could just steal them. However, due to the simplicity of this game I feel like if you do have secret tech that works against these characters you could probably just explain it, a visual demonstration isn’t really necessary.
[quote=“SaSSolino, post:128, topic:626”]
That said you still downplay like a maniac. You are talking like you have it all figured out, when I’m pretty sure you don’t.[/quote]
There’s honestly not a lot to figure out. Characters in this game have single-digit movesets. This is not a game where you have to lab a character for like a month to know what they can do. You need to learn what options are available to a character in various situations, but after playing a matchup vs a good player a few times it starts to become fairly obvious.
Heck, this is the entire reason Fantasy Strike exists as a game. To allow you to access high-level play without having to grind for months on end first.
And yet depth is a thing. I used to think that Grave was meh until I saw how solid he can be in good hands.
There’s more underneath, let’s not be too hasty or pretencious.
I have been beaten by a couple Lums.
Air b is really good during fireworks.
Also if Lum is close enough, he can jump forwards and either a or b. A hits in front, b hits behind. It’s a good crossup.
Your level of play from when I’ve played you suggests there is a lot you are missing
Lum is really good at zoning him. If a hypothetical character could zone Rook perfectly, but then instantly dies if Rook gets close, that would still be a 10-0 matchup.
Lum seems well enough equipped to give her a hard time starting her offense. By this and the Rook thing, it seems you give more weight to how hard of a time Lum has after he other character already got their game plan started, but I give more weight to how much Lum disrupts their game plan from starting. But still haven’t played a really good Valerie like squible so we’ll see.
I put Lum as the winner actually, but maybe you just made a typo. I pretty much agree with what Octaroll wrote above. Geiger and his gears are too slow to stop Lum from flooding the screen with items, and Lum seems to win a turtling war. Geiger seems to be able to do well going on offense, but getting the right items can shut that down.
Honestly, I have no idea who you are. I’ve never fought anyone with that name, so your steam name must be different.
Also, lol about feeling good about beating Lum anyway.
Re: Geiger, you might be able to try to stall him out if not for Air Super, which Lum has no answers for and basically gives him at least one point of free damage guaranteed. There’s also basically no situation where Lum ever does any damage from range, so you’re going to have to try to take the life lead one way or another.
I am ~What a Beautiful People~
The name is familiar, are you a mainly DeGrey player? There was one fairly good DeGrey I fought a lot of times, but I’m sure I’ve taken at least a few games off of him.
I did learn a few tricks to the matchup, like the fact that ground super at neutral is always unsafe vs DeGrey, but “what each character can do in any given situation” is pretty much the only thing to learn about this game. Once you understand the matchup, playing it is usually fairly straightforward. This game doesn’t really have a lot of footsies or meter management or anything to it. I feel there’s also not really enough depth here to develop any kind of unique “style” as a character, most characters really have only one potential gameplan.
I play Rook/Geiger/Jaina/Grave, but vs you I also remember 8-0’ing you in the Lum mirror and I am completely certain I didn’t drop any games. I’ve played a bit of Degrey but I think that was all before Lum came out
I definitely feel that there’s a level of personal expression that comes out from the better players of this game. I feel that I could confidently identify Squible or Cwheezy or Sirlin’s play from playing against them, regardless of which character they selected.