Tier list Discussion


My bad. Edited her in.


duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude you gotta play Cwheezy’s Jaina.
And then you will be so so sad


CWheezy is just a better player than I am, he would probably beat me with Arg as well. I wouldn’t mind a video though, do you have it?


check his twitch

Jaina has ridiculous zoning (duh) but also a ridiculous blockstun loop that can only be stopped by 1 or 2 moves per character. Rook only can use his supers to beat it, and at very tight timings


Post Tournament. (I got 4th place NA!)

I dunno man.
I think more important than Tier list is a matchup chart because honestly, that’s way way more important, so I’ll try and squeeze some here from what I can gather.

A++Jaina Setsuki
A+Geiger Grave Arg Lum Midori Val
A Rook DeGrey

I am a grappler main, particularly rook. Surprise surprise salty my character is weaker thing, sure yeah.
I am not as familiar with matchups that I don’t normally play or see, so how is Lum vs DeGrey? Literally no idea.

At the tournaments, every character was represented. Lum was only played by one player: Sorryamerica, but I think Lum was his weakest link and it wasn’t on par with the scary Lums I’ve seen, so I have less data on him.

Jaina all in all to me is the best not only because of her amazing zone, but also because of her ridiculous pressure. At least as Rook her pressure is near impossible to deal with. Her fA is amazing and confirms into jB, she can get free chip with jS, and has an invincible DP. The only bad matchup she seems to have is against Arg, but only data is with Vall3y’s great showing with Arg outzoning everyone. Beating Jaina is basically baiting out her DP at the highest level

Setsuki has a ton of tools. She can use her super to go through projectiles to close the distance, has great mixups, seriously tumbler is a killer, and has easy 4 hit combos. That super charges so fast. Can kind of zone out grapplers, and has mixups for days.

Geiger and Grave you’ve heard me complain about forever,Geiger has that whole Guile thing going on of Zoning then DP your face, plus has guaranteed chip with jS, and his fA is amazing. Graves is the shoto with also a lot of tools and pretty much can do it all.

Valerie has great chip damage and can do 4 hit combos from the air. Her mixups aren’t as crazy as sets but she has disjointed hitboxes and can also thread through fireballs.

Midori has tools. The parry is strong when done well, and dragon is amazing. I won with a 5 hit combo and my midori isn’t even amazing.

Arg I haven’t seen a ton of but he out zones all the other zoners and pretty much everyone I saw had a tough time getting in on him. Vall3y’s Arg I think went undefeated, but I only saw so many matchups. He thinks that maybe he’s disadvantaged against the rushdowns, and CWheezy thinks he’s maybe a little undertuned but from what I saw he was unapproachable, and the poison just won him the rounds.

Lum I have seen do terrifying things with his dice when fighting against CWheezy and Sirlin. Dice are just a huge pain to deal with, and his fireworks, dice, mini lums and everything, it can just be chip for days. Not to mention when played right he gets cake and cherries which means more dice and less dying so ugh. Don’t know how he fairs against most of the cast though but people think he’s pretty good.

Rook Is good. I love Rook. I don’t think Rook is even with any of the zoners. Maybe Graves if any of them. His clap is basically pointless against geiger since if you clap you can still get fA’d and take damage, you’re forced to take chip from jS, or he just walks out of the corner with ground S, and jumping over gears can get you kicked. Rooks jB loses to Geiger jA, and he can’t neutral jump over gears because they’re so slow. Jaina is rough for all the reasons you already know and even if you close, a wrong guess gets you sent full screen be it from C or YC, or sometimes she just gets away by jumping back. As stated earlier her pressure is nuts and rook needs super to beat it, it’s impossible without

DeGrey is also good, but I don’t think he’s fast enough to compete with Setsuki’s mixups and he just simply has to work harder for his wins. His ghost can beat projectiles but it’s not really spamable, and ghost can pretty easily be blocked. His best deal is frame traps and crossup ghosts on oki, but I think in general he just has to work harder than everyone else to win.


Jaina to me is all good matchups or even ones, and then Arg is bad probably
Sets is the same with Jaina but I don’t know about Arg

A+ tiers are mostly even, DeGrey I think is mostly even but maybe a little bit not in his favor, like a bunch of 4.8s or whatever. Rook is bad against all 4 zoners, I think maybe has it a bit rough with Setsuki too until you get that knockdown, and is even against everyone else, maybe MAYBE a slight edge over Val and DeGrey

Seriously, I need to see Sirlin play Rook against CWheezy’s Jaina and see what he thinks.


Jaina loses really significantly to Geiger in my opinion and also loses to Grave and maybe loses to Valerie and probably loses to Lum and possibly Setsuki, I think Jaina is in the bottom half of the characters



Here are my opinions


In order from Cwheezy’s chart

Geiger 65
Jaina 62.5

Setsuki 55.5
Grave 53.5
DeGrey 51
Valerie 50
Midori 49

Argagarg 42.5

Rook&Lum 35.5

Unsure about Arg and Lum because I haven’t seen those matches as much (since they are newer)
I don’t know if I agree with DeGrey being 6.5 on Rook

To me it would be absolutely insane if Jaina is bottom tier @laundandus


I would have said that Jaina beats Arg bad because of the hitbox on his fA, and as far as I know, Jaina loses against Geiger and Grave.


you feeling validated because of what I say makes me think I should not say anything, your rook play has many problems.


well that feels rather unnecessarily mean spirited
Also super duper tired 4am johns I’m not thinking straight

But like, how does rook beat your Jaina, seriously


If you are ever pressing B in neutral or as a wakeup, or jumping vs jaina, you are probably making a mistake. Use 10,000 jump C, jump forward C, and block.


Also rook looks worse than he really is because of jaina, otherwise he is fine. If you don’t have to fight jaina rook goes to 35 (45 being break even), and jaina looks much more normal


Well according to your tier list, Rook is still negative against everyone but val, though personally I feel he’s more even with Val and DeGrey, I’ll have to fight your DeGrey sometime and see how bad it really is. It’s a fun matchup when I play people of equal skill to me.

Also as I was saying before in the discord, this game is really (or at least feels really) skewed towards zoning. Like if you can Guile then Guile.


Being negative isn’t bad, it’s mostly slightly negative which is fine and good for the game tbh


but being “slightly” weaker than everyone means a character is undertuned
and also the only MU according to your chart that are “slightly” negative for Rook are Midori and Arg
You can argue that DeGrey being slightly negative than everyone is still balanced, but Arg Rook and Lum less so


With Setsuki, Grave, DeGrey, Valerie, and Midori, I can say your charting for these characters say they’re fair and balanced.
But Geiger and jaina are +15 and +12.5 (even without Rook it’s +8)
Arg is -7.5 and Rook and Lum are -14.5

Of course, this is just based off of your personal opinions of the matchups which of course are highly educated, but aren’t of course written law. I’m going to rewatch some of the EU vods and form some more opinions on the MUs I don’t play


I’m rewatching the vods and I dunno if it’s just the people that Vall3y fought, but he really makes it look like that arg beats teh other zoners, maybe not graves who has a more balanced moveset, but at least with Geiger and Jaina that poison and jS seems to really do a number on them